Reader Response :
Dear Tomegg,
I am responding to your note about the "Flexible Presbyteries Overture". The overture does not create any new presbyteries without any geographic limits. It simply allows churches to move to a presbytery that already exists today within a reasonable distance. So the presbyteries will be geographic in large part with some churches that are from outlying areas. The reason to allow moves is because of the theological impasse that is the reality of the PCUSA. You will note that not only will evangelicals who are in a minority be able to move, but so will progressive liberal churches who find themselves in a minority and at odds constantly with a conservative presbytery. The goal is to bring a measure of peace on at least the presbytery level. This new overture does not allow for the formation of any new presbyteries!
The overture also restricts churches from leaving the denomination for at least 4 years if they take this option. It is not an exit strategy. I... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
I am under the impression that biblically theological presbyteries are okay? On the other hand homosexual sex is sin according to the Scriptures. Maybe it depends on what kind of cake you are asking for.
Reader Response :
When the GA approved PUP, local option, without the due-process of the polity of the church in terms of allowing for majority presbytery consent it set up the denomination for processing these type of ordination request through the church courts, rather than the mechanisms of traditional polity. As the Pottery Barn says, "You break it, you own it."
That being said, Mr. Anderson will have his day in court, along with the drama and theator inherent in these types of cases. Apart from his given sexual orientation he may indeed posess the elements of grace, care, emotional intellegence, compassion, love, faith, and empathy one would hope in all clergy. Lord knows we have ordained enough heterosexual idiots in our history that we should be careful of the stones in our glass house. And at the end of the day the Church, national, will have to come to some resolution on this matter of sexual orientation and ordination. Once done though the Church, national, and local will need deal wit... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
This isn't a return to biblical standards. The seminary had a biblical standard before. It's a small group trying to depose those running the school in about as unbiblical a way as possible - through slander and unproductive arguments about words. If two men believe scripture and one accuses the other of lying about it, why do you automatically believe him? I can't understand this pervasive attitude in the church!
Reader Response :
I'm sorry,really sorry, but I don't care who Scott sleeps with, nor do I care if he is gay or straight. Does he preach well? Is he kind to animals and children? Does a quest for justice move him in any way? Can he, will he, protect the weak? Is he a friend to strangers? All these questions are devoted to the well-being of someone other than Scott. Notice how non-religious they are and are meant to be. I care about global warming; I care about health care for babies whose parents are poor; I care about fresh water and enough food to go around for everybody. I do not care about religion if religion doesn't like people enough to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, free the captives, and so on. How do I know, because the Bible told me so, in so many words and in so many ways, I'm not going to fetch the concordance. No religion is worth a life. That life - Scott's or mine or even one of his detractors, is worth more than all religions combined. A little Heschel and... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Hi Jim,
Your comment to my note reveals how tired you are ... and the same goes for me, too.
There's been a lot of self-righteous posturing from all sides of the question, and if some feel put-upon by the liberal agenda, others feel equally put-upon by the conservatives. Ever since the passage of G6.106b, I've felt put upon by a relentless conservative agenda fueled by a lot of big money, cleverly derailing every effort at ordination for GLBTs, always threatening to leave if they can't get their way.
So, the sword cuts both ways.
I think we've done our theological work, and I think we've all spent a great deal of time listening to one another, and if there are "listening" issues, I suspect both groups share many of the same sins.
I've had some mighty fine conversations over the years, most with the same conclusion - we accept one another as Christians, but cannot accept our take on practice.
I wish there were a way beyond this, but it doesn't look promising.
We're all very tire... ...Read Full Response
Response By :
Tom Eggebeen -
Los Angeles , CA - March 17, 2010
Reader Response :
The writer talks about the importance of listening, but then demonstrates by this quote that he did not practice it in this exchange:
As one conservative said to me, "We'd just like to have a place where we can hold to our theology."
I replied, "But it's more than theology. It's practice, and the heart of the practical question is ordination for GLBT persons, and for me, it's a question of justice."
Each person articulated their bias/position in this exchange but there was no attempt on either part to explore the others' position in any fashion. The author instead of engaging the theological question of the 'conservative' just answers with his preferred arguments. That is how I would actually interpret the 'conservative', there is a sincere weariness in having a sexual agenda ceaselessly rammed down the churches collective throat by an over-represented minority with no real intention of listening or substantive dialogue. A 20% minority has 90% representation in our national office... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Tom..I find your treatise convincing and compelling. I concur that perhaps the greatest hurdle most churches face today is convincing, or dragging in to the 21st century, the established " naysayers " that the need to change is indeed the blueprint for survival.
As my wife said to me just the other day "perhaps churches have to die before they can sucessfully resurrect in a new and vibrant form, fighting the establishment appears to be a losing battle ".... JIm Babcock
Reader Response :
John 14:15, Jesus says "If you love me, obey my commandments." Colossians 3:22 says "Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eye-service, as men pleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;"
Seeing that Christ commanded us to be obedient, it is of utmost importance that we do obey in order to show our love for Him. Disregarding obedience is not Christlike.
Reader Response :
Oh please stop. I recommend a book, "On Religion," by John Caputo, a Catholic philospher who teaches at Syracuse. Please do read this book. For those of you who like Augustine, particularly his Confessions, the read is easy and refreshing, sort of like a dip in a cool, clear lake. No doctrines or formulae, no question of obedience or disobedience, finger pointing, excluding or including. The thesis is terribly simple: We are hard wired to love. But what or who? And if we love God, what is it that we love when we say we love God (and do as we please). Can we cut to the chase and go home to the basics. Forget the rest: Gays, please stop pleading and whining and looking up hormones in dictionaries. Straights, stop screaming hysterically as if you knew what a human being was, is and is to be. Stop it. What do we love when we say (if we say it at all) that we love God? If there's only one answer, we loused it up, again. Lots of answers all possible. Can we ask that question... ...Read Full Response
Response By :
Jill Schaeffer -
Cincinnatus , New York - March 11, 2010
Reader Response :
Re: Allah and God (Originally sent Feb. 26)
Dear Mr. Haberer:
The most recent story on “Allah” on page 8 of the March 8, 2010 Outlook, “Malaysia Christians flock to worship amid attacks on churches” follows your article on the web, “Christians, Jews, Muslims, Together?” written by you on February 23. I searched the Letters to the Editor to see if anyone was commenting on this idea that God and Allah are the same and I found nothing except Jim White’s response to your January 24 article, “So What About the Muslims?” You may have more responses, but I do not have time to read the 3,000 responses to the Outlook or the 342 mentions of Muslim on your website.
What I have taken time to read over the years is a long list of books about Islam and terrorism that results from deeply committed and deep reading by Muslims of their religious books. By the time a Muslim is able to understand Islam, they are committed to acting like Mohammed asked them to act, by telling o... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
For Kazimeirz being a theological student, I am a bit concerned that there is no theological reasoning this commentary. Instead, it is based on Roman law and the evolution of that law over time. However, the Romans did not invent marriage. The scriptural witness in both the Old Testament (Abraham and Sarah for example) and the New Testament point to marriage being both much older than the Roman Empire and also for faithful believers between a man and a woman (Gen 2:24; Mt. 19:5; Mk. 10:7-9). It seems to me that for pastors, candidates, and inquirers, our starting point on issues should always be what does Scripture lead us to believe and do? I am concerned when a candidate, or other Christian, instead, takes a secular approach to theological issues, or tries to dismiss scriptural texts due to a "different culture and time." We may not always appreciate what a scriptural text says, but I do not believe we can dismiss it. Instead, I think we need to seriously engage the text, which som... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
The problem - worried more about issues and trying to be liked by the world instead of fulfilling the Great Commission and adhering to the standards of the faith that are explicit in the Scripture. Too many of the churches seek to be "inclusive" and admired by the world. When the church looks like the world, why bother going to church? People, as they always have, want the truth. Too many pastors are too concerned about offending some regarding their lives that they instead, choose to offend God.
Reader Response :
What this committee has demonstrated is that the PC(USA) may not even be able to answer even a simple question with any certainty. If we can't even tell people what marriage is, why should we expect them to come to us for spiritual guidance in anything else. We continue our headlong plunge into irrelevance.
Unity is becoming the cover word for institutionalizing dysfunction.
Reader Response :
Weird, I see nothing more than a denomination taking the appropriate steps to ensure faithful compliance with the higher standards to which a church affiliated educational institution should be held (higher than the "educational substandards" of SACS). Perhaps if our own PC(USA) affiliated/connected colleges and seminaries were likewise held to these higher standards we would not find ourselves in the theological quagmire that has become our resting place. When the church begins allowing the secular world to determine the standard, it has indeed begun its demise...
Reader Response :
Mr. Hurwitz,
I am now saddened. It seems as if dialogue has turned to stone throwing again. Anyway, here we go:
*Moral Dysplasia- You say "If you are unable to see the distinction between a Hamas member and a two-year child, and are unwilling to assign them different values depending on their level of innocence, you are suffering from a profound case of moral dysplasia."
If you would read my post more closely, I make no such claim. What I say is that I am suspicious of the doctrine of moral equivalence when employed by governments in defense of sovereignty. The issue at stake in what I said is that governments make "sovereignty" a highest good, to which many grievous acts can be committed in defense of said state. To use your example (turned a bit to my advantage), Israel might state that a military action resulting in the death of the 2 year old you mentioned so as to get at the Hamas member is not morally equivalent to the mortar attack that sparked the military response. Their def... ...Read Full Response
Response By :
Rev. Samuel Weddington -
March 9, 2010
Reader Response :
While I appreciate the congenial spirit of the committee's work and your points, I find both to be disingenuous and not really addressing the heart of the matter.
In Hebrew the required answer to Amos' question is an unqualified "NO". Any first year Hebrew student can affirm this. It is for this very purpose that we have such things as "essentials of the faith", and why we speak about certain theological positions as being non-essentials. This is so that ultimately we can agree on essentials and agree to not agree on non-essentials.
If we have indeed reached a stage in the life of the denomination where an essential (fidelity/chastity) is being "re-negotiated" or "re-visioned" to a non-essential, let us be open and honest about this. And let us also treat with grace and compassion those congregations that find this unconscionable and Biblically non-negotiable, by allowing them to no longer "walk together" with us (the removal of the property clause).
Reader Response :
Is there any place for a real study or serious commentary about Islam? Because one has met some "good Muslims" does not really qualify one to be an authority on the history and content of the religion. To pretend that Islam is just another form of a good religion, like ours, in another book cover is not only stupid, it is dangerous. Until one has read the Quran and knows something about the haddiths; has studied the history of Islam and read authorities like Bernard Lewis, Serge Trifkovic, Bat Y'oer, Samuel Huntington, or Ibn Warraq; and understands something of the struggle that is going on in the world today, there is zero authority in their opinions. So far I have seen little evidence of anyone writing in the Outlook having read the materials. So, here is a brief commentary about Islam.
Islam is a religion of war. It always has been. From the Jewish tribe of Banu Nadir in Medina, the burning of the great library of Alexandria, the genocide of the Christian Armenians in Turkey, t... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
The new format for the Outlook is really handsome! And as I review the content, I am convinced that the magazine is one of the most helpful resources for pastors and concerned laypersons.
Of course, the magazine is a kind of concourse in which the differing parties on the issue of homosexual leadership are brought into renewed contact with one another, sometimes on a weeky basis, by news or partisan communications.
This could be a good and necessary thing, promoting mutual understanding. It does however require a great deal of editorial sensitivity.
Evangelical conservatives who have been dealing with the gay issue for years, sometimes for decades, have at times found themselves being subjected by church leaders to a process leading to managed compromise, and sometimes to a surrender of core beliefs.
They may be able to continue to confront the controversy, again and again, with a sense of responsible commitment to promote the purity,... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
(continuation of response to Samuel Weddington)
You complain that not every Arab wants to kill Jews, and that innocents are being punished. I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, the innocents live in a nation that has elected murderous thugs as their government. These thugs have, in fact, vowed to kill every Jew on the planet (have you not read the Fatah or Hamas charter, seen their newspapers or television shows, or listened to their leaders?). The innocent along with the guilty have always suffered during war, because it is impossible to treat each and every person in an enemy country based on their individual characteristics , no matter how hard one tries. (Unless, of course, techniques such as selective assassination are used - as suggested in the Goldstone report – though when Israel is suspected of doing this, there is still international condemnation). When the adult population stops voting for genocidal fanatics to lead their government, the suffering will end.
... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Disobedience and Deceipt. Disobedience by Scott, Covenant and John Knox. To be a faithful follower of Christ, are we no longer required to be obedient? That is the message I have gotten from Scott, Covenant and John Knox. Christ never forced any to follow Him. Instead, He allows us to make the choice. If you decide to follow Christ you are to die to self and be obedient to Him. What we see in this is not an act of obedience, but one in which they are wanting the PCUSA obey them. In this act of disobedience, they are forcing their will on the church which just recently voted against this again. The PCUSA does not force them to remain in the church so why are they trying to force the church to change in their image? Perhaps they have molded a god into their image as opposed to worshipping a God that made us in His image.
Reader Response :
Mr. Koster believes that there is a central tent post—a covenant—around which Presbyterians can agree to gather. We used to think it was scripture, until we found how differently it can be interpreted and applied. Next the Confessions, until we reminded ourselves how much we dislike anything reeking of subscriptionism. Then it was the "Unity" of our PCUSA identity, until it sounded a bit elitist and seemed to exclude brothers and sisters of other denominations. Now it is on us to willfully commit ourselves to a covenant (the form is unimportant, says Koster) in order to preserve unity. But if our willingness to invest ourselves is of greater importance than the content of that to which we agree to adhere, why not just set up a golden calf? The people's willingness to commit themselves has no value in and of itself, it only gathers value when God is worshipped and glorified. We will either gather around God as known in Christ and revealed by scripture, or we will set up a conveni... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
A magnificent minority report HAS been produced and is well worth reading, heeding, and approving. Three committee members have remembered that we DO have a Bible and it DOES have good things to say that we DO need to follow--no matter to what depths the culture around us stumbles and falls. It is so simple, and yet the majority report makes it look so complicated.
Thank God for the witness of Tracie Mayes Stewart, Lisa Cooper Van Riper, and Bill Teng!
The minority report is posted here: http://www.pcusa.org/oga/newsstories/minority-report-civil-union-christian-marriage.pdf
Reader Response :
Through the ages God has made covenants with His people, people have made covenants with one another, and commitments to covenants have broken over and over again because of our sinful human nature. There may be "no king in the land" today but the Church is not without a King — His Name is Jesus! The Scripture writers call Him King of kings and Lord of lords and the head of the body, the church. In My Utmost for His Highest, Oswald Chambers has written "We will come to Jesus for Him to be our comforter or our sympathizer, but we refrain from approaching Him as our Almighty God.” I believe that when we are willing to submit to the authority of Jesus, He will lead us by His Spirit to discover our Father's will in these challenging days. Paul's prayer for the church at Ephesus (1:15-23) is applicable for us in the PC(USA) today and for all others who desire to honor our Crucified, Risen Lord as King.
Miriam McNeely, Elder
Mooresville, NC
Reader Response :
Re response of Samuel Weddington (continued):
You complain that not every Arab wants to kill Jews, and that innocents are being punished. I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, the innocents live in a nation that has elected murderous thugs as their government. These thugs have, in fact, vowed to kill every Jew on the planet (have you not read the Fatah or Hamas charter, seen their newspapers or television shows, or listened to their leaders?). The innocent along with the guilty have always suffered during war, because it is impossible to treat each and every person in an enemy country based on their individual characteristics , no matter how hard one tries. (Unless, of course, techniques such as selective assassination are used (as suggested in the Goldstone report) – though when Israel is suspected of doing this, there is still international condemnation). When a majority of the adult population stops voting for genocidal fanatics to lead their government, there will ... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Mr. Hurwitz,
Thank you for your kind replies. I am heartened when you write: "I myself disagree with many acts taken by Israel, as do others in this thread and elsewhere. Obviously, this does not make us anti-Semitic."
While we might disagree on particular points made so far, it is good to see that we agree here. In my case, I have spent much time dedicating myself to the study of the Holocaust and the plight of Jews, and furthermore, in studying the dialogue between Jews and Christians that peaked in the late 70’s. In my case, as a Presbyterian, anti-Semitism is a charge I do not take lightly, especially coming from a world-renowned Jewish organization.
I will also walk the second mile with you: Though not an Israeli, I certainly can understand the want, the need, to protect one's citizens. To this end, I do not condemn Israel. However, as I think the point has been made over and over again, there are some deep disagreements about things like the border fence, the situation concer... ...Read Full Response
Response By :
Rev. Samuel Weddington -
March 7, 2010
Reader Response :
The various culture wars fought in the oldline denominational churches the last 40 or so years, have more or less post-staged larger or more more secular stuggles which have happened already in society. As the women's ordiantion struggles of the 1970's lagged 10-15 years the whole Liberation movement which began really in the 1950s and even before that in industrial production during WW2. So the ongoing struggle in the larger church over matters of sexual orientation post-date the AIDS/HIV awareness of the 1980's and the move to same-sex partner benefits and the civil-union laws of earlier in the decade just past. Even the military is now openly comming to terms with the revision of Don't-ask-Don't-tell doctrine. The point is that if modern evangelical-conservatives assume they are still fighting a battle over gay ordination or broader social issues related to human sexuality, that war has been lost, and is over, except for the shouting. Many of those opposed to gay ordination eith... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Mark Achtemeier is not the only evangelical Christian who has changed his understanding of homosexuality.
I have been a Presbyterian minister since 1949. I am still a committed evangelical. I repeat the Apostles Creed with confidence. I embrace “the Word of God which is contained in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments” as our guide in understanding “what man is to believe concerning God, and what duty God requires of man,” I reject the journalistic practice of identifying the religious right as evangelical.
For most of my life I responded to homosexuality in terms of the Holiness Code in Leviticus and in the teaching of St. Paul in his letters to the Roman and Corinthian churches. I have read the Bible through many times. Yet, in 2007, I was startled by fresh insight from Matt. 19:11 where Jesus said, For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have ma... ...Read Full Response
Response By :
Edward D. Auchard H.R. -
March 6, 2010
Reader Response :
My heart breaks when I read what John Knox Presbytery is involved in an approves of. Do we no longer agree with what God's Holy Word says??? Why not open our Bibles and read: Leviticus 18: 22-30, Romans 1: 24-27, & 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. What does it say? Does it say it is ok to have same partner relationships? As far as I can read, it does not. And I am sure that God-fearing, Bible-beleiving Christians will not stay in a Church where the pastor is gay. We have all sinned. That is why Jesus had to come and pay for our wicked sins on the Cross. If I sin a certain sin, is it ok? NO, I am in the wrong and I have to pray to God to forgive me thru Jesus Christ and to ask for His help to sin no more!!! This is so sad for approval of this kind of sin in our Church leaders today...
Reader Response :
Re response of M. Samuel Weddington:
Thank you for reading and commenting on my letter. It should go without saying that criticism of Israeli policies or actions is not per se antisemitic. I myself disagree with many acts taken by Israel, as do others in this thread and elsewhere. Obviously, this does not make us antisemitic.
Regarding telling Israel what to do, the church seems determined to impose what it calls "peace" whether Israel (or the Arabs) wants the church's interference, accepts whatever the church decides its "just" (based on what?), or whatever the consequences to Israel's security and viability. The fact that both Fatah and Hamas have repeatedly stated that the 'two-state' solution is the next step in their quest to eliminate the Jewish state is obviously of no concern to the church, which feebly says in response that it "hopes" Israel remains the home of the Jewish people. Since when does a Presbyterian committee, which has no foreign policy, military, or diplomat... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
With respect to Mr. Weddington's complaint about my second post:
That post was a sarcastic rebuttal to Reinhard Krauss' obnoxious and biased comment, in which Krauss accuses Israel of "crimes against humanity", claims to be the arbiter of "the truth", and attempts to define what "supporting Israel" should be (note the beginning line of my post: "With respect to Reinhard Kruass' comment:"). It was almost a verbatim re-post of Krauss' original comment, with just a couple of words changed to reverse the perspective.
I did this to show the bigotry and illogical reasoning in Krauss' post, which no one else writing here (including Mr. Weddington) seems to have noticed. It's interesting how Mr. Weddington and perhaps others did notice the bigotry and unfairness of my post, however, which was virtually identical. In that respect, I think my point - that Israelis are demonized for doing the exact same thing and responding the exact same way to violence against them as others do - was made... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Mr. Hurwitz,
I am also alarmed at some of you language in your second post. You state: "I am profoundly saddened by the unwillingness of the Presbyterian Church to acknowledge the centuries of crimes against humanity perpetrated by it against the Jewish people..."
Centuries of Presbyterian crimes against humanity? Centuries of Presbyterian crimes against the Jewish people? I'm not really sure what history you are referring to here? Is it because Presbyterians are Christians that you assume we have committed crimes against humanity and the Jewish people?
Don't get me wrong, the church certainly has blood on its hands. However, if you were to do a modicum of research on the Reformed tradition, I think you would realize how misinformed your opinion is. In fact, to start a dialogue here, I would encourage you to read the Declaration of Barmen (which is included in our historical confessions; you can find it here http://www.creeds.net/reformed/barmen.htm), and look at the Reformed traditio... ...Read Full Response
Response By :
Rev. Samuel Weddington -
March 5, 2010
Reader Response :
In response to Kerry Hurwitz:
With all due respect, your response is over the top.
Is disagreement with some of the current policies of the nation of Israel, ipso facto, anti-Semitism? I think not. At the heart of your argument you rail against our hubris in having an opinion about the subject at all, primarily because we seem to have some opinions that condemn current actions undertaken by the state of Israel (as well as our own government, the Palestinian authority, and other Arab countries if analysis be fair).
You are right. We have no right to tell what Israel to do. In fact, as I understand the work of the committee, we aren't telling the nation of Israel what to do. What we are doing is:
-setting forth our opinion and analysis of the situation
-based on that analysis, allocating and directing OUR funds in a way that does not involve the hypocrisy of profiting off of what we do not condone
-based on that analysis, attempting to promote and push social justice as far as we can in... ...Read Full Response
Response By :
Rev. Samuel Weddington -
March 4, 2010
Reader Response :
Many thanks for this. American culture is dominated by "how"! It's worked for us. But the house of cards built by business models has collapsed in the last two years; the shiny armor of free-market capitalism is now stained and dented. And much the same for the vaunted "growing churches" of the last few decades. Sadly, theology became the handmaiden of technique. Nothing spoils the mind and the heart of the church more thoroughly than "worldly success." Pastors grow pompous, churches look down their noses at one another, and we write "how to" books till we're dizzy. A lot more time with Bonhoeffer and Barth might yet save us.
Response By :
Tom Eggebeen -
Los Angeles , CA - March 4, 2010
Reader Response :
Everytime the PCUSA chooses to stir the pot on the Palestinian-Israel conflict the charge has been made by some, thought by countless others, that the PCUSA may be an anti-semitic organization both in practice and ideology.
As a long time and documented critic of the curernt organizational management structure of Louisville and its organs, I can find no evidence, overt or covert, that would support such a finding. Either in the classic sense of the term or the neo-classical application, where any critical statement on or of Israel, seems to get painted with the anti-semitic brush. Misguided as they may be, the PCUSA does not deserve such treatment.
Any pro-Palestinian, Hammas, PLO bias of the PCUSA coroprate structure is more due to their cultural and academic bias as it comes to the Jewish state, than due to any hatred of Jews, simply because they happen to be Jews. You cannot pass a single hallway in any PCUSA related seminary or college and not see statements of solid... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
I was looking for a craft on Shadrak, Meshak and Abednego when I came upon your website. I'm not with your denomination, but I am so encouraged as I read that you will stay and stand for what the Bible says is right. I also believe that Luther and these other men who took a stand outside of their religion did what was right. God has a plan for each one of us. Some are called to stand and fight, some are called to leave and fight. We are all in a spiritual battle and we need to fight the good fight. Believe God for who He says He is and stand with the Bible as His word.
Reader Response :
Good for John Knox Presbytery ... to further the cause of liberty and equality. For some, of course, it'll be one more reason to leave the church, but for others, it'll be a reason to return. Tens of thousands have left our ranks over the years because of our closed doors. Slowly, but surely, they are opening again. God be praised.
Response By :
Tom Eggebeen -
Los Angeles , CA - March 2, 2010
Reader Response :
I have been thinking about the recommendation to remove Caterpillar stock from our portfolio and wonder how may other companies have been included as stocks to sell based on how their products are used. Do we Presbyterians believe that Israel would refrain from building walls if they had purchased Kubota equipment from Japan?
I believe this is a slippery slope. Caterpillar has had a stellar history and provides high quality jobs for tens of thousands of Americans. Their products are used to build churches, colleges, highways, dams that prevent floods, and grow crops that feed the entire world. I submit that there are not many companies in the world today that has never sold a product that was used for evil.
Is Kodak responsible for pornography because they make the film? Is Xerox responsible for counterfeiting because they made the copiers? Do we believe the phone companies are responsible for the content of conversations transmitted over their systems?
I would hope we would find mo... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Regarding Reinhard Krauss' comment:
I am profoundly saddened by the unwillingness of the Presbyterian Church to acknowledge the centuries of crimes against humanity perpetrated by it against the Jewish people, and instead lend its voice to those seeking to destroy the state of Israel and commit genocide upon Jews. At the same time, I hope the church — for the sake of Jews and Arabs alike — has the courage to raise its voice in support of humanity and against the gender apartheid, slavery, oppression of women, anti-Semitism, and support of terrorism in the Arab world.
Kerry Hurwitz
Boston, Mass.
Reader Response :
Sloppy reporting … does not include the background of or accurate facts about the case.
For those who don't know (probably 99% of those who read this), by agreement the “West Bank” is comprised of three areas. 96% of Arabs live in areas administratively controlled by the Palestine Authority.
The area in question is, by agreement with the P.A., under Israeli military control. The reason why Israel asked (and was permitted to) keep control of this site is that terrorists have long used the site, located on a hill, as a base to shoot at and murder drivers (both Arab and Israeli) on a nearby road. The Israelis built a watchtower there (and) the killing stopped.
Beginning in 2006, Israeli troops no longer used the site regularly (though it remained under Israeli jurisdiction) and some nearby townspeople put up swing sets other toys without consulting local government. Almost immediately, the attacks resumed. Since the P.A. is not able or willing to prevent these shootings, the Israe... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
This “report” is an insult to the Jewish community. It is hostile, inaccurate, and libelous. If accepted, the church will (again) announce itself as racist, anti-Semitic, and at war with its Jewish neighbors.
First of all, what gives your church the right to dictate to a sovereign nation what it ‘should” or “should not” do? Have you issued reports of this sort to Sudan, China, or Saudi Arabia? When you do, and when you show as much attention to the millions being slaughtered in the Congo and Sudan, perhaps we will listen to your complaints. It takes incredible hubris to think you have any right to tell a democratic U.S. ally under attack by Islamic radicals bent on extermination what you think it has the “right” to do.
Your “report” is so full of factual misrepresentations it's hard to know where to begin. First of all, the 1967 armistice line is not “internationally recognized” by anyone. It was a temporary truce line settled after five Arab nations attacked ... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
China has illegally occupied several countries including Tibet, yet there is not one overture to boycott Chinese companies. When a group like the PCUSA singles out Israel and the companies that do business with her, we call this anti-Semitism. I just visited a Holocaust exhibit in London. Those who did business with Jews were singled out and punished. To boycott Caterpiller because they do business with Israel is a policy of hate straight out of the fascist playbook. Why is it that mainline Christians always find a way to produce policies of hatred towards Jews?
Reader Response :
I have been thinking about the recommendation to remove Caterpillar stock from our portfolio and wonder how may other companies have been included as stocks to sell based on how their products are used. Do we Presbyterians believe that Israel would refrain from building walls if they had purchased Kubota equipment from Japan?
I believe this is a slippery slope. Caterpillar has had a stellar history and provides high quality jobs for tens of thousands of Americans. Their products are used to build churches, colleges, highways, dams that prevent floods, and grow crops that feed the entire world. I submit that there are not many companies in the world today that has never sold a product that was used for evil.
Is Kodak responsible for pornography because they make the film? Is Xerox responsible for counterfeiting because they made the copiers? Do we believe the phone companies are responsible for the content of conversations transmitted over their systems?
I would hope we would find ... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
This 'report' is not only hostile to Jews, it is antisemitic in tone if not intent.
First of all, what gives the Presbyterian Church the right to try to dictate to Israel what it 'should' or 'should not' do? Have you issued reports of this sort about Sudan, China, Saudi Arabia, or the human rights abuses of Hamas and the Palestine Authority? If you are singling out Israel for approbation instead of or more than despotic regimes which murder millions and actively support genocide, then you are guilty of antisemitism according to the 3 D's enumerated by Natan Sharansky - double standards, delegitimization, and demonization.
It takes incredible hubris to think you have any right to tell a democracy under attack by genocidal neighbors, who have vowed to kill every Jew on the planet, what you think it has the 'right' to do. When the authors of the report move to a war zone where terrorism causes the equivalent of the death toll of 9/11 every three weeks and where rockets target schoolc... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Nowhere in the Bible do we read that being a woman is an abomination. This cannot be said about homosexuality. Comparing the ordination of woman and homosexuals/lesbians is like comparing apples and oranges. It cannot be done - at least not logically.
Reader Response :
Sloppy reporting which does not include the background of or accurate facts about the case.
For those who don't know (probably 99% of those who read this), by agreement the 'West Bank' is comprised of three areas. 96% of Arabs live in areas administrativelly controlled by the Palestine Authority.
The area in question is, by agreement with the PA, under Israeli military control. The reason why Israel asked (and was permitted to) keep control of this site is that terrorists have long used the site, located on a hill, as a base to shoot at and murder drivers (both Arab and Israeli) on a nearby road. The Israelis built a watch tower there are the killing stopped.
Beginning in 2006, Israeli troops no longer used the site regularly (though it remained under Israeli jurisdiction) and some nearby townspeople put up swing sets other toys without consulting local government. Almost immediately, the attacks resumed. Since the PA is not able or willing to prevent these shootings, the Isra... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
This is another opportunity to disparage a group of Presbyterian USA members. Do you have jobs for them? Is there any group we like? We lose more members with every attack.
Reader Response :
This 'report' is not only hostile to Jews, and antisemitic in tone if not intent.
First of all, what gives the Presbyterian Church the right to try to dictate to Israel what it 'should' or 'should not' do? Have you issued reports of this sort about Sudan, China, Saudi Arabia, or the human rights abuses of Hamas and the Palestine Authority? If you are singling out Israel for approbation instead of or more than despotic regimes which murder millions and actively support genocide, then you are guilty of antisemitism according to the 3 D's enumerated by Natan Sharansky - double standards, delegitimization, and demonization.
It takes incredible hubris to think you have any right to tell a democracy under attack by genocidal neighbors, who have vowed to kill every Jew on the planet, what you think it has the 'right' to do. When the authors of the report move to a war zone where terrorism causes the equivalent of the death toll of 9/11 every three weeks and where rockets target schoolchi... ...Read Full Response
