Comments for Questions about gay ordination: Answers can be complicated at http://pres-outlook.net , comment 1 to 4 out of 4 comments http://pres-outlook.net Sat, 06 Sep 2008 11:32:45 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://pres-outlook.net/opinion/guest-commentary/5103.html#comment-3476 I am grateful that Jack Rogers got to where he is in his understanding of sexual ethics (Outlook, Aug 20/27), but to get there does there really have to be 'a change in the way we interpret Scripture'? It seems to me that the church can move a very great distance simply by taking a fresh look at the creation narratives and the handful of texts customarily cited to condemn any and all same-gender sexual relations. Engaging in old-fashioned exegesis of these passages, interpreting Scripture in the light of Scripture, and being informed by a particular Scripture's particular context can itself bring us to the realization that there is no text that speaks against exclusively committed same-gender partnerships. The basic Biblical concerns for social justice and love for neighbor can take us the rest of the way. - William Smith Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/opinion/guest-commentary/5103.html#comment-3402 In his article, "Questions about gay ordination," Beau Weston describes the Presbyterian position on heterosexual divorce and remarriage as a "pastoral compromise" and proposes a comparable compromise as a possible "middle position" regarding ordination of people who are homosexual. I researched how the church changed its mind (and policies) towards people who divorced and remarried for my book, Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality. I found that the church's shift in attitudes towards people who are divorced and remarried was the direct result of a change in the way we interpret Scripture. Starting in the 1940s Presbyterians began to reject a literalistic, proof-texting approach to Scripture and instead chose to interpret the Bible through the lens of Jesus redemptive life and ministry. This approach to Scripture became standard practice in our church because it deepened our understanding of the original text and brought us into a closer relationship with God. Remarkably, this Christ-centered approach to Scripture also helped to resolve formerly divisive issues such as the role of divorced and remarried people in the church. When we apply this same Christ-centered hermeneutic to our current debate over the role of people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender in the church we will once again be able to resolve our differences and move forward together as a church. - Jack Rogers Mon, 16 Jul 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/opinion/guest-commentary/5103.html#comment-3376 I can only believe that Weston has not consulted the Book of Confessions (which is part of our constitution) when he simply equates 'chaste' to 'celibate.' It is clear that in the Book of Confessions 'celibate' means 'not married.' Because our ordination standard refers directly to the Book of Confessions, it is especially important to use 'chaste' as it is used in the Book of Confessions: 'That all unchastity is condemned by God, and that we should therefore detest it from the heart, and live chaste and disciplined lives, whether in holy wedlock or in single life' (Heidelberg Catechism 4.108); and 'The duties required in the Seventh Commandment are: chastity in body, mind, affections, words, and behavior, and the preservation of it in ourselves and others; watchfulness over the eyes and all the senses; temperance, keeping of chaste company, modesty in apparel, marriage by those that have not the gift of continency, conjugal love, and cohabitation; diligent labor in our callings; shunning of all occasions of uncleanness, and resisting temptations thereunto' (Larger Catechism 7.248). Based on this use of 'chastity' in the Book of Confessions, it cannot be the same as 'abstinence' either. - James Doug Anderson Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/opinion/guest-commentary/5103.html#comment-3368 So divorce and homosexuality are basically condemned the same? Deuteronomy 24:1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance. Mat 19:8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." 1 Corinthians 7:10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. 12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? Looks to me like divorce because of unfaithfulness is permitted. And divorce because an unbeliever does not want to remain married to a believer looks to be ok. Now lets look at homosexuality and sexual immorality. Leviticus 18:22"'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Leviticus 18:29"'Everyone who does any of these detestable things--such persons must be cut off from their people. Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. Ephesians 5:3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4that each of you should learn to control his own body£ in a way that is holy and honorable, 5not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit. Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Revelation 2:14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality. Revelation 2:20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. Funny I can't seem to find any place where homosexuality and sexual immorality are permitted. But I can find divorce being acceptable. - Gary Cole Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:00:00 +0100