Comments for A time to act: NW vote begins movement toward EPC at http://pres-outlook.net , comment 1 to 5 out of 5 comments http://pres-outlook.net Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:39:51 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/4207.html#comment-3093 The concerns raised above about the EPC's position on remrriage after divorce are a bit misleading. And I would caution the critic about possible hypocracy. The EPC's position comes from the Westminster Confession of Faith, which also happens to be one of the confessions recognized by the PCUSA. The Westminster Confession states: 'the remairriage of divorced persons may be snactioned by the church ... when sufficient penitence for sin and failure is evident ...' and 'Divorced persons should give prayerful thought to discover if God's vocation for them is to remain unmarried, since one failure in this realm raises serious questions as to the rightness and wisdom of undertaking another union.' Furthermore, the PCUSA Book of Order at W-4.9002 provides that if a PCUSA minister believes a marriage or remarriage is unwise, he may seek seek session's counsel. The EPC's position paper on remarriage may be found at: http://www.epc.org/about-epc/documents/DivorceandRemarriage_000.pdf. - Forrest Norman Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/4207.html#comment-3091 'Coming with all our women' says a New Wineskins spokes-'man'. Now isn't that revealing! Just parsing each word in that sentence speaks volumes about the theology and mind-set of this movement. - Hart Edmonds Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/4207.html#comment-3090 The expressed desire of some new Wineskins participants to leave the denomination is as old as the church itself. Case in point from the 1920's. My grandfather,Edwin Rian, was a part of the formation of the OPC in the early 1900s. The same accusations of theological liberalism was used for professors and students to leave Princeton Seminary and the denomination in search for a more doctrinally pure church. For over 20 years of his life he committed himself to the OPC. He served as president of Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia as well as other leadership positions in that new denomination. At first he was on fire about this new movement. But as time passed this purer church could never become pure enough. That is a group within the OPC split off to form another purer church and that group split one more time. Eventually, although his theology never changed, he remained a staunch conservative all his life, his ecclesiology did change. He recanted and returned to the United Presbyterian Church believing that a church driven into existence by this desire for purity will judge itself to death. I believe he came to see that secondary to an orthodox faith is a faith of ortho praxis. Right beliefs are of utmost importance but a right heart even more so, thus the psalmist prayer for a clean heart. Of course we all remember that Jesus told his followers that they would know them by the love they had for one another. Name calling and demeaning each other demonstrates to a world that presbyterians or more concerned with every jot and tittle than with rejoicing in the glory of the risen Lord and his grace he offers to the world. I don't think God gives any person or interest group the whole understanding of divine truth. Perhaps purposely God gives each of us a different piece so that we must rely on each other. I was reared in the presbyterian church from evangelical missionary parents. During that time my father became more liberal and my mother remained a moderate conservative. In the course of growing into the church and faith I began as most do, believing that I had all the right answers. It was my task to convince people of the truth I had so cleverly deduced from scripture, prayer, and the world. However, God kept placing before me people with views quite different than mine. I found that two people I respected and loved, my parents, held very different views. I knew they were both loving, both intelligent, both preachers of prayer and dedication to God's truth. I discovered often that although the core of my view did not change the character and subtle contours did. I came to see that people with vastly different views than mine who hold them in faithful trust ALWAYS have something to teach me about the nature of God and being a faithful disciple. For example though I do not hold a verbal plenary view of scripture, the devotion and commitment of the people who do have grown in me a hunger and desire to read scripture. Their passion for faith is crucial for our life together. I would hope they would also see that God has placed something in the hearts of moderates and liberals for them to hear as well. Tom Evans, EP Sheppards and Lapsley - thomas evans Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/4207.html#comment-3087 In the course of the past couple of weeks I have seen one person suggesting that the reason to stay with the PC (USA) is that Hosea stayed with Gomer - which if I understood the analogy correctly left me unhappy with the assignment of roles. I have seen a variety of articles with expressions such as the carefully elucidated 'Whoopee! EPC here we come!', quoted in the article above. I fully understand that there are folks who see leaving for the EPC or some other new home as the best viable alternative for a faithful future. God's blessings be with them. What I fail to understand is the idea that the Presbyterian Church (USA) is approaching utter ruin. I am not prepared to say that the church that has always been my church is approaching utter ruin. By always, I mean, I was born in 1964. I went to Church for Sunday School, Whirlybirds, Jet Cadets, VBS, youth group, Sunday worship, and virtually any other time the church doors were open through my high school years. I had life changing experiences at the Synod of the Covenants Youth Celebration in 1982 and at the 1983 Presbyterian Youth Triennium. I attended Louisville Presbyterian Seminary and was ordained as a minister of the Word and Sacrament in the PC(USA) in 1990. Since then I have been a minister in three congregations and have seen a variety of vital expressions of the faith of folks in these several congregations. Is the church perfect. Of course not. Am I routinely frustrated by the inward focus when there is so much for us to offer to the world. Definitely. Do I want to go somewhere else? No. Our church has nurtured, cared for, ministered to, and supported me over a lifetime. It has an amazing amount to offer to the world, and it is uniquely qualified to offer what only it brings to the table. I have no doubt that the Evangelical Presbyterian Church and most other denominations that one might list do excellent work and have touched lives in ways similar to what I have described. But I am in no way prepared to say that the body of Christ as it finds expression in the Presbyterian Church (USA) is anywhere near finished doing the great good work to which it has been called by God. - George Love Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/4207.html#comment-3084 While I think I understand, although have little sympathy for or agreement about, the men in the churches wanting to leave the PCUSA and join with the EPC,I have absolutely no understanding of why any ordained woman would want to identify with a denomination which didn't view her or her ordination as 'essential'. Why would she (they) want to go back to the dark ages as far as women's issues are concerned and fight those battles all over again? I chuckle at the quote by Gerrit Dawson, 'They understand we're coming with all our women.' Sounds to me like the women are like the physcial property they want to take along as well. For my ordained sisters, this causes me much sadness. - Rev. Alice J. Petersen Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:00:00 +0100