Comments for Leaving on their minds: New Wineskins to vote Feb. 9 at http://pres-outlook.net , comment 1 to 8 out of 8 comments http://pres-outlook.net Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:26:27 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/3987.html#comment-3013 I think, Matt, you have misunderstood my remarks. I was not attempting to cast stones. I am an evangelical Christian, and have good friends in New Wineskins. Nor was I making any deprecating comments about their faith. Nor did I ever contend that they 'fear man' -- I am really unclear how you came to that conclusion. The point that I was making, which you also helped me make, is that life is not always so clearcut. You claim 'They are running from nothing but are running to God.' Are you sure? Is life that simple? I have found that often it is not. Consider the book of Job. Is it a clearcut simple explanation of life and the struggles of life? No. Instead, it is a complex picture of life with many convoluted theological meanings that scholars cannot fully agree on what it says. My experience and scripture tell me that those who try to make things seem so simplistic, often ignore the complexities of the cosmic warfare that is being waged. As Paul said, 'For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.' Indeed, none of us has a clear picture of what is really happening in this ongoing struggle in the Presbyterian Church. None of us have the heavenly view of the battle that is being waged between God and the forces of evil. No, it is not so clear to me that leaving the denomination is merely running to God. I only raise the question, is that all it is? Or is it running from the cosmic struggle? Or is it both? I know the devil does not attack us with blatant attacks, but tries to cloud the issues, making what is not God's will seem so good and inviting. Consider the temptations of Jesus in the wilderness. The devil would like us to use simplistic either or thinking. C.S. Lewis greatly captured the tactics of the evil one in his great book THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS. I think every Christian should read it, so we all understand what we are up against. All I know, and scripture affirms this, that the evil will not rest. He will continue his battle against the faithful. He will use everything he can to get us to abandon God's will. (See Revelation.) And the one's I have talked to who are leaving or considering leaving the denomination, are all making the same remarks -- the same remarks I have heard them make over the last several years -- they are 'tired of the fighting.' That sounds to me like they are running away, that they have given up any hope for the future of the PC(USA). I am thankful, Matt, that you have chosen to stay in the PC(USA), that you are committed, as I am, to seeing us regain our vision for God's plan for the PC(USA), that you will remain faithful to God's revelation in scripture, and that you will stand alongside all of us who dearly desire to faithfully follow Jesus Christ as both Savior and Lord of our lives. I pray for God's blessing and anointment to be upon you, Matt, in your ministry. And I am overjoyed to serve alongside such a devoted brother in Christ. Grace and peace to you dear friend. - David McCann Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/3987.html#comment-3010 As one who is staying as part of those in New Wineskins who will remain in the PCUSA but who knows many who have left and others who may well leave, Dave McCann's statements concerning them is about as wrong as one can be. They are running from nothing but are running to God. After much prayer, they have decided that (for them) to 'contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints' (Jude 3) means leaving the small community of faith (PCUSA) in order to cling to the Body of Christ, knowing it will likely be costly to them. For you to say otherwise reveals your ignorance of them, their faith, and of the cost they are willing to bear in this fight to be faithful. As I said, I am one of many orthodox believers in New Wineskins who are remaining but I do not cast stones at those leaving for I have seen their heart and know they fear only disappointing God. They do not fear man (Louisville) as you contend. - Matt Ferguson Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/3987.html#comment-3008 I have a couple of observations. First, when New Wineskins was created, the language they used in their charter was somewhat schismatic, so I am not the least bit surprised at their recent actions to leave the denomination. Second, and this is specifically addressed to those churches and pastors who are leaving the denomination. The devil now knows what it takes to get you to run away. Be assured, he will not rest. He will continue to chase you. He will continue to bring up new issues in your new denomination to get you to run away again. Why? Because this is his tactic to inhibit your ability to serve God with your whole being. I too am tired of the fighting. I too am tired of standing strong for what I understand the Bible and our Confessions teach us. But I also know that it is in my weakness, my tiredness, that Christ is made strong in me. It is then that I am able to withstand the wiles of the devil. But if I run, the devil will keep chasing me. Somewhere in the life of every Christian, we must take a stand for Christ in direct oppposition to satan. And we must stand strong, every day of our lives, until Christ calls us home to God's kingdom. This is tiring work standing up to the constant assualt of the evil one. But it is in our weakness that Christ is made strong in us, and the devil can never stand up to the power of God in Jesus Christ our Lord. So, to those who choose to leave, I ask, when will you choose to take your stand and remain steadfast for the rest of your earthly days? - David McCann Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/3987.html#comment-3003 My observation is that several if not many New Wineskins churches are being led out of the PCUSA by their elders and sessions, not by their pastors. It seems as if congregations are taking their pastors with them. - John Sheldon Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/3987.html#comment-3004 I am writing as one who has long been involved in the New Wineskins workgroups and one who is part of the New Wineskins Association of Churches. I pastor a church that will remain in the PCUSA, as many of the churches in New Wineskins will (don't overlook that). I also just returned from the most recent meeting in Orlando. One thing I think we need to always strive to do is speak truthfully, even when we disagree with another's actions. To Nathan Lamb, Some pastors have left unilaterally. Also, many elders, deacons and others have left unilaterally. (I am wondering what the membership loss numbers will look like in 2008 with this individual exodus.) A decision to leave should always be made by pastors and congregations individually, though I am sure that doesn't always happen. I have heard many stories where that has been done. Don't assume otherwise. To Carlos Wilton, I would think both the PCUSA and local churches would tell you they believe they are seeking to do Jesus' will and both believe they view the property as belong to Christ. They both believe God is on their side. One is wrong in how this is being handled. To David Bower, The New Wineskins started their study of how to be more faithful in a Reformed, connectional, missional church in the 21st century 5 or 6 years ago. The EPC started their study on the same topics over 3 years ago. As they each followed after God's leading they found each other and started looking at the possibility of doing something together. The EPC has responded to questions and requests. It is unfair to characterize these brothers and sisters in Christ as you have. They were two Reformed groups, both sensing God's call in a direction that led them to one another. Everyone should take a serious look at the structure of New Wineskins. I truly believe the PCUSA as a whole should move in this very direction. I can remember how in 2005 our Stated Clerk sent out a letter asking for suggestions on how our denomination could move in new ways. There was even a list given by him on what needed to be done. We were holding our first convocation the very day that letter was sent out and we all had to laugh as we read the note because we were meeting to present a structure that met every one of his listed needs. Our Stated Clerk was sent a copy of what New Wineskins had developed in response to his request and, as far as I know, no one heard anything back. - Matt Ferguson Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/3987.html#comment-2994 My late grandfather, an evangelist in the Church of God, had a term for what the EPC is doing. He called it sheep stealing. Those of us who grew up in Virginia have another term for it: tacky. If folks prayerfully and thoughfully discern that they are being called away from the PC(USA)flock, so be it. Once they've left the flock it's prudent that they find another body of Christians. It is, however, inappropriate for the EPC to begin picking them off before they even leave. - David Bower Fri, 09 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/3987.html#comment-2995 'Some congregations trying to depart the PC(USA) are scuffling with the denomination over whether to take their property with them...' writes Leslie Scanlon ('Leaving on their minds: New Wineskins to vote Feb. 9'). Reflecting on these words, I wonder: Wouldn't it change the whole tenor of this debate, if - instead of speaking of 'our' property or 'their' property - we would speak, instead, of 'Christ's property'? Our Confessions and Form of Government still do speak of him as head of the church, right? - Carlos Wilton Fri, 09 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/3987.html#comment-2996 I have a question. Why is it that when a pastor decides he/she wants to leave the denomination, they always seem to take their congregation with them? Are people afraid that their credentials will not get them a church in the EPC/PCA? I don't think there is anything preventing a single individual from disaffiliating from our denomination, joining another, and then going through that denomination's call process. It seems like a major violation of professional ethics to lead an entire congregation out of the PC(USA) so that one will have convenient employment when they decide to break fellowship with the PC(USA). But who cares about ethics these days? - Nathan Lamb Fri, 09 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100