Comments for Large Tulsa church votes to leave PC(USA); polity, property questions raised at http://pres-outlook.net , comment 1 to 6 out of 6 comments http://pres-outlook.net Fri, 19 Mar 2010 02:27:27 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/2756.html#comment-2703 Writing, or even thinking about leaving the PC(USA), for me at least, is fraught with guilt. So much of our time and energy is spent in weeding the cracks in the sidewalk on the right and left sides of the church we are missing the spiritless parade going past our front door (war, famine, materialism, family breakdown, nationalism). For the past 11 years I have been sitting on the front steps of the church watching and often crying and missing sleep because of what I see. For forty years I was front and center inside of the church. I had power, real power. I could set the tone of the session and convince and direct the congregation. This power is dangerous! If I was not getting my share of attention in the Presbytery, or I was passed over for some appointment or if I had some long held Biblical bias, my stance in the pulpit could have pushed and had folks leaning in my direction. It would have been a grievous error, if not a sin. I believe I could have talked the Session of the church to follow me, with the support of a few strong and like minded elders, to leave the denomination. How could I? The church was not mine. I have been in three Presbyterian denominations in the past 50 years and never moved my membership, PCUSA (northern), UPCUSA (United), and PC (USA)...the church that was divided repented and returned to their senses. It's time for pastors and sessions to sit on the front steps of the church. - Donald Jafvert Mon, 09 Oct 2006 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/2756.html#comment-2667 I'm one of those moderates that gets kicked around by both sides because I cannot totally agree with either on the ordination question. But I have very strong opinions, especially about the vows I took to be ordained by the PC(USA). If I, personally, cannot agree with our polity and discipline, then I, personally, am to leave. No where in my vows was I given the right to take a congregation with me. And if the day should come when I could not with good conscience do what is required of me by the polity of this denomination, then I leave. The congregation was simply my responsibility for awhile, but in fact is a part of a larger whole called the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A). If that congregation should choose to leave, then it should happen while under the care of the Presbytery which should with great diligence and integrity allow the process to go forward as the congregation makes a very difficult decision. In our self-indulgent, self-centered world, we clergy many times also fall victims to such self-importance thought and begin to believe our 'truth' outweights any promises or commitments previously made to God of man. And that is too bad. - Dwain De Pew Fri, 22 Sep 2006 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/2756.html#comment-2616 Mr. Weaver's 'one foot in, one foot out' posture as regards the New Wineskins Initiative (NWI) is interesting. Apparently, what began as a PCUSA affinity group has, with Kirk of the Hills' defection, now transmogrified into a parachurch organization. It makes for an interesting parallel with Presbyterian Global Fellowship (PGF.) Where PGF appears to be a church within a church, NWI now reaches across denominational lines ... a church without a church? Not to be missed is Kirk of the Hills' 'hiring' of Gray and Hardy as co-pastors. Apparently, it does not matter what side of the conflict you are on ... the 'corporate model' still reigns supreme! - Sid Leak Sun, 03 Sep 2006 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/2756.html#comment-2615 Jack, In this article the PCUSA is termed 'avaricious.' One definition of this word is 'hoard the riches.' Perhaps both the offender and the offended should here take stock, for we are indeed human persons and human agencies. However, almost ten years ago I retired after serving a medium sized church in the heart of North Carolina Presbyterianism. Immediately following my retirement, during the interim period, the church published a pictorial directory. Looking at that directory recently I noticed that over forty person (part of the riches past), whose pictures were in that publication, were no longer with us. Those persons, and the many gone before them, are still part of that riches (250 years), including the 'property.' Those who remain are part of that property, but not the whole of those who created and constructed it. Those who desire to separate should not be questioned about their convictions, but should go with our blessings to create and construct on their own. I think it would be wise for them to consider the words they use, as well as the implied intent. Any loss causes grief, and I'm sure this grieves us all to be at this point and in this position. - Grant Sharp Sat, 02 Sep 2006 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/2756.html#comment-2613 Dr Haberer you need to be more forthright in your description of of the secret document leaked from the GA offices on dealing with congregations who are discussing leaving the denomination As you know it is far far more than the filing of affidavits I'm sure many would be interested in your thoughts on the entirety that peculiar document - Kerry Fraas Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.net/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/2756.html#comment-2614 The GA and PCUSA leadership in my opinion have misjudged the depth of feeling created by the recent GA meeting and any number of actions over the last few years. In the South we are raised to be polite and pleasant-sometimes to a fault.To avoid conflict,we often remain silent even when we strongly disagree with another's position. Unfortunately,this silence is often read as acceptance-until aboiling point is reached and the silence is broken. I think that is where we are now. I think thousands upon thousands of members have reached their limit with tenor and direction of PCUSA-as a result I think the above will occur time after time after time. The Tammen papers are troubling,shameful, and quite honestly despicable. One might expect this kind of approach in some areas of life but it is unbecoming a religious organization. I for one am outraged that dollars I have given for good works are spent on legal fees to take churches away from people. I do not think Jesus would approve of this. I think the PCUSA should reconsider its stance concerning property-the hardball tactics have and will continue to alienate members and the public. I would encourage a common sense approach-if the PCUSA paid for the land the building upkeep and other costs then it's theirs. If the local membership paid these costs then ownership resides with the members. The world is watching how the PCUSA treats its members and the actions in Iowa, Oklahoma and California do not reflect well on the organization or its mission. - v c scott Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:00:00 +0100